[Annual] Organization meeting 20150108

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Pretorian
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[Annual] Organization meeting 20150108

Post by Pretorian » 20 Jan 2015, 19:45

This is the notes from the organizational meeting that took place 2015-01-08. See below for the actual note text.
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Pretorian
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Re: Organization meeting

Post by Pretorian » 20 Jan 2015, 19:45

Board notes
[2015-01-09 00:44:43] <Pretorian> Ok, cologic, poy: board?
[2015-01-09 00:45:05] <Pretorian> Let's decide positions now?
[2015-01-09 00:45:25] <Pretorian> There are three positions: chairman, secretary and treasurer
[2015-01-09 00:45:38] <Pretorian> I nominate myself for treasurer
[2015-01-09 00:46:02] <Pretorian> I do _not_ nominate myself for secretary.
[2015-01-09 00:46:04] <poy> I'll have to re-read the differences...
[2015-01-09 00:46:06] <cologic> What do the others do?
[2015-01-09 00:46:15] <Pretorian> The board

The board members have no pre-designated tasks. It is up to the board to decide what each board member shall do and their position.

A common breakdown of duties is as follows (not required, but serves as a good template):

* The chairman will coordinate the treasurer and secretary, as well as any other matters that the board takes upon themselves. The chairman will also be in charge of organizing meetings and other ventures that the board and/or organization undertakes.
* The secretary will manage website(s), publications (magazines etc), meeting notes etc.
* The treasurer keeps track of funding in the organization and its receipts etc. The treasurer is in charge of announcing the economic state of the organization at the annual meeting.

The organization may of course also create additional positions (such as "webmaster" or "infrastructure manager") but above is what is required per the by-laws (and Swedish law).
[2015-01-09 00:46:59] <Pretorian> I can be chairman as well, if need be. But I feel secretary is way too much if I have both of the other two.
[2015-01-09 00:47:05] <poy> Being chairman sounds more fun...
[2015-01-09 00:47:19] <Pretorian> poy as chairman, cologic secretary, Pretorian treasurer?
[2015-01-09 00:47:21] <Pretorian> :)
[2015-01-09 00:47:42] <Pretorian> easier if I'm the treasurer...
[2015-01-09 00:48:07] <Pretorian> Fight?!
[2015-01-09 00:48:15] <cologic> Presumably we're talking here about very DCNF-core websites? Not all the "supported" ones.
[2015-01-09 00:48:22] <poy> I'm guessing we'll all be helping with the same things anyway. :)
[2015-01-09 00:48:26] <Pretorian> Yes, DCNF-core
[2015-01-09 00:48:32] <Pretorian> poy: heh, yeah
[2015-01-09 00:48:50] <Pretorian> We still need to elect/pick.
[2015-01-09 00:49:06] <Pretorian> Congrats, eMTee, you get to do nothing until one of us leaves. :P
[2015-01-09 00:49:25] <poy> I pick chairman as I guess cologic is a better writer.
[2015-01-09 00:49:27] <Pretorian> (well, as part of the board, feel free to do stuff in DCNF.)
[2015-01-09 00:49:35] <Pretorian> +1 poy chairman
[2015-01-09 00:49:37] <eMTee> :P
[2015-01-09 00:49:41] <Pretorian> +1 cologic secretary
[2015-01-09 00:49:59] <cologic> I'm fine with that. +1 to both.
[2015-01-09 00:50:10] <poy> How often do meetings usually happen (except for this annual one)?
[2015-01-09 00:50:20] <Pretorian> Officially just this one.
[2015-01-09 00:50:27] <Pretorian> But it can be requested more often.
[2015-01-09 00:50:40] <poy> ok, i'll try to organize more. :P
[2015-01-09 00:50:45] <Pretorian> Good good :)
[2015-01-09 00:50:50] <poy> it was very productive.
[2015-01-09 00:50:53] <Pretorian> Yeah
[2015-01-09 00:50:58] <Pretorian> Oh, by the way, one last thing
[2015-01-09 00:50:59] <cologic> I was surprised, but agree.
[2015-01-09 00:51:10] <cologic> The whole set-and-agenda-and-move-briskly-through aspect worked.
[2015-01-09 00:51:18] <cologic> *an-agenda
[2015-01-09 00:51:28] <Pretorian> We need to agree on the organization's legal reference (firmatecknare)
[2015-01-09 00:51:35] <Pretorian> +1 Pretorian /Fredrik Ullner
[2015-01-09 00:51:43] <poy> Pretorian
[2015-01-09 00:51:45] <cologic> It sounds very Swedish to me. +1 Pretorian.
[2015-01-09 00:51:51] <Pretorian> Yes, indeed.
[2015-01-09 00:52:01] <eMTee> since you are the one who's there by person
[2015-01-09 00:52:09] <cologic> Also, legal-name-requiring.

Pretorian
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Re: Organization meeting

Post by Pretorian » 20 Jan 2015, 19:46

Chat from the meeting (part 1)
[2015-01-08 22:00:38] <Pretorian> Hi, and welcome to this first official meeting for the Direct Connect Network Foundation.
[2015-01-08 22:00:58] <Pretorian> I am the interim supervisor of the meeting until the meeting supervisor has been elected.
[2015-01-08 22:01:14] <Pretorian> All who are here for today's meeting, please write now with your registered member name. All those who are here agrees on the by-laws.
[2015-01-08 22:01:21] <Pretorian> Fredrik Ullner / Pretorian
[2015-01-08 22:01:34] <cologic> cologic
[2015-01-08 22:01:35] <poy> poy
[2015-01-08 22:01:39] <eMTee> eMTee
[2015-01-08 22:02:22] <Pretorian> The first order of business is electing a meeting supervisor and a meeting secretary. Those who wishes to be the meeting supervisor or wish to nominate someone, write now a name.
[2015-01-08 22:02:28] <Pretorian> I nominate myself, Pretorian.
[2015-01-08 22:02:36] <eMTee> Fredrik Ullner / Pretorian
[2015-01-08 22:03:06] <cologic> Frederisk Ullner / Pretorian
[2015-01-08 22:03:17] <poy> Pretorian
[2015-01-08 22:03:20] <Pretorian> There have been one nomination, for Pretorian to be voted supervisor for this meeting.
[2015-01-08 22:03:21] <cologic> *Frederik Ullner
[2015-01-08 22:03:27] <Pretorian> *still wrong :P
[2015-01-08 22:03:29] <cologic> *Fredrik.
[2015-01-08 22:03:32] <cologic> There. :p
[2015-01-08 22:03:38] <cologic> I'll edit it out later, I guess. :p
[2015-01-08 22:03:50] <poy> you mean you will "adjust".
[2015-01-08 22:03:55] <cologic> Quite.
[2015-01-08 22:04:04] <Pretorian> The second order of business is electing a meeting secretary. Those who wishes to be the meeting secretary or wish to nominate someone, write now a name.
[2015-01-08 22:04:08] <Pretorian> I nominate myself, Pretorian.
[2015-01-08 22:04:16] <eMTee> Fredrik Ullner / Pretorian
[2015-01-08 22:04:18] <poy> Pretorian
[2015-01-08 22:04:21] <cologic> Pretorian
[2015-01-08 22:04:25] <Pretorian> There have been one nomination, for Pretorian to be voted secretary for this meeting.
[2015-01-08 22:04:48] <Pretorian> The supervisor for this meeting is Pretorian. The secretary for this meeting is Pretorian.
[2015-01-08 22:05:10] <Pretorian> I have now been elected supervisor, and will continue on with the order of business as set forth by the by-laws of DCNF.
[2015-01-08 22:06:12] <Pretorian> Second item is establishing voting length in time for each type of vote during the meeting. Specify now a voting length. If all members vote the same before the time elapse, thereby shortening the time for a vote.
[2015-01-08 22:06:23] <Pretorian> I nominate 2 minutes for each vote.
[2015-01-08 22:06:40] <eMTee> yes for 2 minutes for each vote.
[2015-01-08 22:07:01] <cologic> Yes
[2015-01-08 22:07:01] <poy> I nominate 5 minutes for each vote.
[2015-01-08 22:07:18] <poy> 3 votes for "2 minutes", 1 vote for "5 minutes".
[2015-01-08 22:07:26] <Pretorian> poy: Not yet. :P
[2015-01-08 22:07:30] <poy> -_-
[2015-01-08 22:07:45] <Pretorian> But yes, 3 votes for 2 minutes. 2 minutes shall be used henceforth in this meeting.
[2015-01-08 22:07:45] <cologic> Presumably, one can have a 2-minute vote for a 5-minute vote.
[2015-01-08 22:08:30] <Pretorian> Item 3 in the by-laws: choosing vote counter and meeting protocol adjuster. Those who wishes to be the meeting vote counter or wish to nominate someone, write now a name.
[2015-01-08 22:08:32] <Pretorian> poy
[2015-01-08 22:08:44] <cologic> poy
[2015-01-08 22:08:47] <eMTee> poy
[2015-01-08 22:08:56] <poy> myself, poy.
[2015-01-08 22:09:15] <Pretorian> poy is eleected vote counter with 4 votes. poy shall for the continuation of this meeting count all votes.
[2015-01-08 22:09:28] <Pretorian> Those who wishes to be the meeting protocol adjuster or wish to nominate someone, write now a name.
[2015-01-08 22:09:31] <Pretorian> cologic
[2015-01-08 22:09:35] <poy> cologic
[2015-01-08 22:09:36] <eMTee> cologic
[2015-01-08 22:09:37] <cologic> cologic
[2015-01-08 22:09:42] <poy> 4 votes for "cologic".
[2015-01-08 22:09:53] <Pretorian> cologic is elected meeting protocol adjuster.
[2015-01-08 22:10:18] <Pretorian> Item 4 in the by-laws: has the meeting been announced correctly and fairly?
[2015-01-08 22:10:21] <Pretorian> yes
[2015-01-08 22:10:24] <eMTee> yes
[2015-01-08 22:10:24] <cologic> yes
[2015-01-08 22:10:28] <poy> yes
[2015-01-08 22:10:33] <poy> 4 votes for "yes".
[2015-01-08 22:11:11] <Pretorian> Item 5 in the by-laws: Meeting items shall be established here. State your intended meeting items that will discussed and possibly voted on in item 15.
[2015-01-08 22:11:23] <Pretorian> Only state the "headline" of your meeting items.
[2015-01-08 22:11:33] <poy> Numbered for an easier reference:
* poy-01) Content on the DCNF website
* poy-02) Mailing list for the DCNF
* poy-03) Activities of the DCNF (blog, "social media" presence...)
* poy-04) Acceptance of supported projects (type (programs, protocols...), workflow...)
* poy-05) Separation between the foundation and supported projects (legal, in particular)
* poy-06) Hosting DC hub lists
* poy-07) Hosting DC support hubs for supported projects
* poy-08) Hosting code repositories for supported projects
* poy-09) Hosting websites for supported projects
* poy-10) Hosting mailing lists for supported projects
* poy-11) Hosting bug trackers for supported projects
* poy-12) Buying the services of a network administrator
* poy-13) Using external services to proxy DCNF / supported projects data
* poy-14) Legal structure to help the DCNF
* poy-15) Legal structure to help supported projects
* poy-16) Ways to find new members
* emtee-01) Involvement of the DCNF in DC protocols
* emtee-02) Buying the services of developers
* emtee-03) Mobile/web-based DC-related programs
* emtee-04) Contacting well-known tech bloggers
* emtee-05) DC and businesses
[2015-01-08 22:12:17] <Pretorian> I will allow five minutes for additional thought, or if you wish to continue to next item, just write "continue"
[2015-01-08 22:12:23] <Pretorian> continue
[2015-01-08 22:12:30] <cologic> continue
[2015-01-08 22:12:31] <eMTee> continue
[2015-01-08 22:13:17] <poy> * poy-17) Hub for the DCNF
[2015-01-08 22:13:19] <poy> continue
[2015-01-08 22:13:29] <Pretorian> Count please :)
[2015-01-08 22:13:35] <poy> 4 votes for "continue".
[2015-01-08 22:14:12] <poy> 22 items have been specified for further discussion.
[2015-01-08 22:14:43] <Pretorian> Item 6 in the by-laws: this meeting is the first established organizational meeting. Therefore, there is no proceeding year's board or financial state. This means we will continue on to the next item.
[2015-01-08 22:15:08] <Pretorian> Item 7 in the by-laws: this meeting is the first established organizational meeting. Therefore, there is no proceeding auditors or financial state. This means we will continue on to the next item.
[2015-01-08 22:15:20] <Pretorian> Item 8 in the by-laws: this meeting is the first established organizational meeting. Therefore, there is no proceeding year's board. This means we will continue on to the next item.
[2015-01-08 22:16:08] <Pretorian> Item 9 in the by-laws: We will now decide on the member fee set forth by the organization. State your proposals for amount in Euros €. We will have a vote for each nomination. If only one is nominated, it will be selected.
[2015-01-08 22:16:19] <Pretorian> 10 € per year per member.
[2015-01-08 22:16:33] <eMTee> 10 € per year per member.
[2015-01-08 22:17:05] <poy> 10 € per year per member.
[2015-01-08 22:17:16] <cologic> 10 € per year per member.
[2015-01-08 22:17:26] <poy> 4 votes for "10 € per year per member".
[2015-01-08 22:17:49] <Pretorian> 10 € per year per person will be the member fee. If a person wishes to donate more, they can do so at their free will.
[2015-01-08 22:18:47] <Pretorian> Item 10 in the by-laws: this meeting is the first established organizational meeting. Therefore, there is no proceeding year's board to show a plan. This means we will continue on to the next item.
[2015-01-08 22:19:34] <Pretorian> Item 11 in the by-laws: those who wish to be part of the board or if you wish to nominate someone else, please write a name for nomination. Each person nominated will have their own voting period.
[2015-01-08 22:19:38] <Pretorian> Pretorian
[2015-01-08 22:19:48] <Pretorian> Just the nominations now*
[2015-01-08 22:19:59] <poy> poy
[2015-01-08 22:20:03] <cologic> cologic
[2015-01-08 22:21:46] <Pretorian> Pretorian, poy and cologic are nominated
[2015-01-08 22:21:50] <Pretorian> If you wish for Pretorian to be elected in the board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no.
[2015-01-08 22:21:53] <Pretorian> +1
[2015-01-08 22:21:57] <cologic> +1
[2015-01-08 22:21:58] <eMTee> +1
[2015-01-08 22:22:00] <poy> +1
[2015-01-08 22:22:09] <poy> 4 votes for Pretorian to be in the board.
[2015-01-08 22:22:18] <Pretorian> Pretorian is elected to the board.
[2015-01-08 22:22:20] <Pretorian> If you wish for cologic to be elected in the board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no.
[2015-01-08 22:22:24] <Pretorian> +1
[2015-01-08 22:22:24] <eMTee> +1
[2015-01-08 22:22:26] <poy> +1
[2015-01-08 22:22:38] <cologic> +1
[2015-01-08 22:22:39] <poy> 4 votes for cologic to be in the board.
[2015-01-08 22:22:41] <Pretorian> cologic is elected to the board.
[2015-01-08 22:22:48] <Pretorian> If you wish for poy to be elected in the board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no.
[2015-01-08 22:22:50] <Pretorian> +1
[2015-01-08 22:22:51] <poy> +1
[2015-01-08 22:22:52] <eMTee> +1
[2015-01-08 22:22:53] <cologic> +1
[2015-01-08 22:22:58] <poy> 4 votes for poy to be in the board.
[2015-01-08 22:23:00] <Pretorian> poy is elected to the board.
[2015-01-08 22:23:14] <Pretorian> The board is now complete and consist of Pretorian, poy and cologic.
[2015-01-08 22:23:27] <Pretorian> Item 13 in the by-laws: those who wish to be part of the stand-in board or if you wish to nominate someone else, please write a name for nomination. Each person nominated will have their own voting period.
[2015-01-08 22:23:30] <Pretorian> eMTee
[2015-01-08 22:23:36] <eMTee> eMTee
[2015-01-08 22:23:40] <poy> eMTee
[2015-01-08 22:23:47] <cologic> eMTee
[2015-01-08 22:23:51] <poy> 4 votes for eMTee to be part of the stand-in board.
[2015-01-08 22:24:05] <Pretorian> eMTee is elected to the stand-in board.
[2015-01-08 22:24:12] <Pretorian> The stand-in board is now complete and consist of eMTee.
[2015-01-08 22:24:56] <Pretorian> Item 15 in the by-laws: I will now go over each item in the proposals set in 5 in the order they were brought up. The person that brought it up has the floor.
[2015-01-08 22:25:15] <Pretorian> poy brought up item 1: "Content on the DCNF website"
[2015-01-08 22:25:37] <poy> Let's discuss what is hosted on the DCNF website.
[2015-01-08 22:26:40] <Pretorian> I shall just interject, if you wish to have an item to be an open discussion, please state as such.
[2015-01-08 22:27:14] <cologic> Currently the DCNF website is a forum. Presumably, the intention would be that the forum not constitute the entirety of the site, modulo archive and builds.
[2015-01-08 22:27:15] <Pretorian> (otherwise, people should wait until the person that has the word has given approval after their opening monologue/statement)
[2015-01-08 22:27:23] <poy> I think it should contain a blog, a forum, a DC-related wiki, DC usage tips, an appealing section for people who don't know about DC.
[2015-01-08 22:27:40] <cologic> (Pretorian: ah. Had been unclear myself.)
[2015-01-08 22:27:44] <poy> I approve of further discussion.
[2015-01-08 22:27:50] <Pretorian> Great. :)
[2015-01-08 22:28:19] <poy> I wish this item to receive an open discussion.
[2015-01-08 22:28:23] <Pretorian> I agree with poy, although the question is a) who will be the maintainer and b) why we would need each resource. E.g., the wiki was kind of pointless since no one used it before.
[2015-01-08 22:28:56] <cologic> poy: how would this blog relate to dcpp.wordpress.com? The DCNF probably should not be too partisan towards a particular client, so it could not literally be the same blog, but at least from my end, much of the content I've put on the DC++ blog isn't properly about DC++ to begin with.
[2015-01-08 22:29:24] <poy> The blog could be focused on activities of the DCNF itself at first.
[2015-01-08 22:29:25] <Pretorian> cologic: For what it's worth, the naming scheme was Gargoyle's doing.
[2015-01-08 22:29:32] <Pretorian> (dcpp.wordpress.com)
[2015-01-08 22:29:50] <Pretorian> poy: Do you suggest a new blog to be started (at wordpress)?
[2015-01-08 22:30:04] <poy> Similarly, the wiki could host DCNF-related content at first (member list, supported projects, meeting summaries...).
[2015-01-08 22:30:17] <cologic> I agree that a wiki would be useful, and it, of course, used to exist. I periodically run across links to ADCPortal's wiki and similar sites with annotated, categorized lists of clients, hubs, and similar information to which it would be useful to be able to link and point people.
[2015-01-08 22:30:34] <poy> I'd prefer a blog be hosted on the DCNF website (wordpress can be relatively easy self-hosted).
[2015-01-08 22:30:42] <poy> relatively easily*
[2015-01-08 22:30:57] <Pretorian> poy: I think that costs money, though. (Just pointing it out.
[2015-01-08 22:31:27] <cologic> Pretorian: I used the wiki, occasionally, as a reference. I never ended up making for a good discussion forum, I'd acknowledge.
[2015-01-08 22:31:31] <poy> We will have money. I wouldn't be asking so much if the DCNF wasn't there.
[2015-01-08 22:31:46] <cologic> *It never ended up
[2015-01-08 22:31:50] <Pretorian> poy: Fair enough. If so, I agree.
[2015-01-08 22:32:14] <Pretorian> I think we will need to appoint a person to be the maintainer.
[2015-01-08 22:32:28] <Pretorian> (appoint/pay a maintainer)
[2015-01-08 22:33:15] <poy> That could be added into point poy-12.
[2015-01-08 22:33:18] <Pretorian> So the DCNF website should focus solely on DCNF (and projects it supports etc)?
[2015-01-08 22:33:34] <Pretorian> Or, at least primarily.
[2015-01-08 22:34:21] <poy> That is why I was initially thinking of a separate domain name. But dcbase could do that at first and expand later when we fill confident enough.
[2015-01-08 22:35:16] <Pretorian> dcbase can simply grow from the ADC-centric forum to DCNF.
[2015-01-08 22:35:33] <Pretorian> (which was my initial idea with dcbase anyway)
[2015-01-08 22:35:37] <poy> Any other content anyone can think could be added to the DCNF website?
[2015-01-08 22:36:06] <Pretorian> I think this is pretty clear/good: [tor:22:27:23] <poy> I think it should contain a blog, a forum, a DC-related wiki, DC usage tips, an appealing section for people who don't know about DC.
[2015-01-08 22:36:46] <cologic> Yes, I'd support all of those things.
[2015-01-08 22:36:54] <Pretorian> If poy feels item 1 has been addressed satisfactory, we will move on to item 2: Mailing list for the DCNF
[2015-01-08 22:37:29] <poy> I feel item 1 has received a satisfactory discussion.
[2015-01-08 22:37:50] <poy> I want item 2 to be an open discussion.
[2015-01-08 22:38:07] <Pretorian> What purpose does a mailing list have, compared to a forum?
[2015-01-08 22:38:28] <Pretorian> Beyond the availability of having it offline I suppose (getting content as a mail).
[2015-01-08 22:38:30] <poy> None.
[2015-01-08 22:38:42] <Pretorian> Do we need a mailing list if we have a form?
[2015-01-08 22:38:49] <eMTee> Mailing lists are thing of the past. What are its advantages to modern counterparts like forums or social media?
[2015-01-08 22:39:07] <poy> I see no need for the DCNF to have a mailing list.
[2015-01-08 22:39:16] <eMTee> I agree.
[2015-01-08 22:39:18] <Pretorian> Agreed
[2015-01-08 22:39:22] <cologic> Agree.
[2015-01-08 22:39:28] <poy> I feel item 2 has received a satisfactory discussion.
[2015-01-08 22:39:43] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 3: Activities of the DCNF (blog, "social media" presence...)
[2015-01-08 22:39:49] <poy> I want an open discussion for item 3.
[2015-01-08 22:40:19] <Pretorian> There is www.reddit.com/r/directconnect and dcbase at Twitter and youtube/directconnectnetwork.
[2015-01-08 22:40:36] <Pretorian> Should there be an additional channel/twitterpage/subreddit for DCNF?
[2015-01-08 22:40:55] <poy> Good. facebook and Google+ are missing.
[2015-01-08 22:41:23] <Pretorian> First of all, I think the youtube account shall be "given" to the organization/board. It is currently in my "possession".
[2015-01-08 22:41:59] <cologic> Pretorian: given relative dearth of content, a separate subreddit, at least, might spread things too thinly. I don't have a strong opinion, however.
[2015-01-08 22:41:59] <Pretorian> Should we both have Facebook and G+?
[2015-01-08 22:42:12] <poy> eMTee: Details on the social media activities you had in mind?
[2015-01-08 22:42:31] <Pretorian> I personally don't use G+, and I barely use Facebook.
[2015-01-08 22:42:51] <Pretorian> (I _have_ G+ since I have a Gmail but beyond that)
[2015-01-08 22:42:59] <poy> In these sectors, sometimes the more the merrier, even if content is being repeated from one social media to the other.
[2015-01-08 22:43:05] <cologic> I don't use either. I have no position on this, as a result.
[2015-01-08 22:43:11] <cologic> (G+ or Facebook.)
[2015-01-08 22:43:40] <eMTee> poy: I merely mentioned it as today's necessity. I don't use social media myself so I can't go further to propose details.
[2015-01-08 22:43:54] <poy> The accounts Pretorian listed are enough by me.
[2015-01-08 22:44:15] <Pretorian> poy: So you mean Twitter/Youtube/Reddit is sufficient?
[2015-01-08 22:44:18] <eMTee> I think if you want to effectively promote something you can't miss social media these days.
[2015-01-08 22:44:45] <poy> Yes, sounds like enough.
[2015-01-08 22:44:49] <poy> Activities of the DCNF might also include participation in boards / websites / social media places the DCNF itself is not in control of. Thoughts?
[2015-01-08 22:44:51] <Pretorian> the problem with G+/FB is that perhaps a few people (you guys) don't want to divulge your real names so...
[2015-01-08 22:45:27] <Pretorian> Yes, that is fine for me, assuming DCNF is correctly represented.
[2015-01-08 22:45:41] <poy> Who can represent the DCNF in these places?
[2015-01-08 22:45:56] <Pretorian> At its heart, the board, I suppose.
[2015-01-08 22:46:00] <Pretorian> (and stand-in)
[2015-01-08 22:46:15] <Pretorian> That is the only "official" DCNF support/presence.
[2015-01-08 22:46:16] <cologic> Pretorian: my understanding is that the DCNF, as an organization, could have a page separately from any individual (non-purely-legal) person.
[2015-01-08 22:46:29] <cologic> I don't know the mechanics of how that functions, however.
[2015-01-08 22:46:47] <Pretorian> cologic: Yes, but you still need to link/attach yourself to that page so anyone who is part of the page can see each other. I.e., I would see you.
[2015-01-08 22:47:01] <Pretorian> But sure, if people don't link/attach themselves, that's possible.
[2015-01-08 22:47:29] <Pretorian> You just can't really post/do anything on it, unless you login with a separate "FB DCNF account".
[2015-01-08 22:47:43] <Pretorian> (similarly as the twitter page)
[2015-01-08 22:48:03] <Pretorian> I'm fine with having things on FB, I am only concerned with maintenance.
[2015-01-08 22:48:25] <Pretorian> And I'm not afraid of divulging my name, so that's kind of up to you guys.
[2015-01-08 22:49:18] <poy> So we are OK with the possibility of having Facebook / Google+ / [other] accounts in the future, should the need arise.
[2015-01-08 22:49:22] <Pretorian> Yes
[2015-01-08 22:49:33] <poy> I feel item 3 has been discussed enough.
[2015-01-08 22:49:38] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 4: Acceptance of supported projects (type (programs, protocols...), workflow...)
[2015-01-08 22:49:44] <poy> I want an open discussion for item 4.
[2015-01-08 22:49:56] <Pretorian> What type of "acceptance" did you have in mind?
[2015-01-08 22:50:43] <poy> By "workflow", I mean "process" by which an entity can submit a project to be supported by the DCNF and who / how it would be accepted.
[2015-01-08 22:50:55] <poy> Also, who can submit.
[2015-01-08 22:51:02] <Pretorian> What does it mean that a project is "supported by the DCNF"?
[2015-01-08 22:52:04] <poy> The project will benefit from any service provided by the DCNF to its supported projects; details are to be discussed in future points.
[2015-01-08 22:52:22] <Pretorian> Fair enough. Who shall draw up the process/workflow?
[2015-01-08 22:52:43] <Pretorian> To be discussed later on or done by the board?
[2015-01-08 22:53:00] <poy> I think it should be decided here.
[2015-01-08 22:53:14] <Pretorian> Now, or at a DCNF meeting in the future?
[2015-01-08 22:54:00] <Pretorian> (and by "DCNF meeting", I don't mean the one in one year)
[2015-01-08 22:54:01] <poy> I'd prefer we decided now, unless some people want time to think about it?
[2015-01-08 22:54:47] <Pretorian> I think it is soemthing to be considered, I believe it is quite complex on the steps unless they are very broad. Do you have any suggested steps/actions we/users can take otherwise?
[2015-01-08 22:55:29] <poy> I say any member paying the minimum fee can submit any project he fancies. The board will then decide / vote whether said project qualifies to be supported by the DCNF.
[2015-01-08 22:55:42] <Pretorian> Fair enough, +1.
[2015-01-08 22:55:47] <cologic> +1
[2015-01-08 22:55:53] <poy> The specifics of how a project can qualify are more complex and can be established later on.
[2015-01-08 22:56:03] <Pretorian> Agreed
[2015-01-08 22:56:18] <poy> +1
[2015-01-08 22:56:24] <eMTee> +1
[2015-01-08 22:56:42] <poy> 4 votes for "Any member paying the minimum fee can submit any project he fancies. The board will then decide / vote whether said project qualifies to be supported by the DCNF.".
[2015-01-08 22:56:54] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 5: Separation between the foundation and supported projects (legal, in particular)
[2015-01-08 22:57:35] <poy> As I can envision some members of the DCNF will also manage DCNF-supported projects, I wanted some talk about the separation.
[2015-01-08 22:58:03] <poy> Organizational separation: voting powers about one's own projects, especially when one is member of the board.
[2015-01-08 22:58:45] <poy> Legal separation: making sure the DCNF has no trouble should one of its supported projects legally misbehave (or vice-versa).
[2015-01-08 22:58:52] <poy> Feel free to discuss item 5.
[2015-01-08 22:59:16] <Pretorian> Organizational separation: Does a board member not have a vote if it's a project they own?
[2015-01-08 22:59:42] <Pretorian> (own/manage)
[2015-01-08 23:00:06] <cologic> I don't have a strong position on this, but would observe it creates weird incentive structures to disallow people from voting that way.
[2015-01-08 23:00:42] <Pretorian> I am fine with lack of vote if there is at least two members in the board that do not own or manage the project.
[2015-01-08 23:01:08] <cologic> It's more likely to create ties, if nothing else.
[2015-01-08 23:01:23] <Pretorian> Legal separation: Just general guess: perhaps a simple disclaimer/use notice would work.
[2015-01-08 23:01:38] <Pretorian> Terms of use
[2015-01-08 23:01:43] <poy> +1 for "no right to vote when a board member is also a manager of a supported project".
[2015-01-08 23:02:04] <Pretorian> Fair enough, +1
[2015-01-08 23:02:09] <cologic> Properly addressing legal separation would require actual legal knowledge, but I'm not sure under what circumstances the DCNF would acquire presumptive responsibility to start with.
[2015-01-08 23:02:33] <Pretorian> cologic: If we have simply a terms of use, then perhaps one can reference that.
[2015-01-08 23:03:00] <cologic> +1 as I don't object
[2015-01-08 23:03:00] <Pretorian> I am also unsure how we can provide an actual legal separation.
[2015-01-08 23:03:33] <Pretorian> A board member shall also not have a vote if the project misbehaves.
[2015-01-08 23:03:45] <Pretorian> (i.e., it applies both for inclusion and exclusion of the supported project)
[2015-01-08 23:04:11] <poy> I mostly had in mind the "list of things P2P devs cannot do" (such as helping a person download a movie). Can DCNF members do that without putting DCNF-supported projects in danger? Can DCNF *board* members do that without putting DCNF-supported projects in danger?
[2015-01-08 23:04:41] <Pretorian> As long as we abide by that list by EFF, I'd say we're good.
[2015-01-08 23:04:43] <poy> 3 votes for "no right to vote when a board member is also a manager of a supported project".
[2015-01-08 23:04:47] <cologic> poy: I suspect that's a more subtle legal question than anyone here can answer.
[2015-01-08 23:04:53] <cologic> Though, a good/worthwhile one.
[2015-01-08 23:05:37] <poy> Side question: Can the DCNF accept projects the managers of which we suspect might have infringed on that EFF recommendation list?
[2015-01-08 23:06:10] <Pretorian> Yes, on the presumption that have fixed their errors.
[2015-01-08 23:06:13] <poy> I think the secretary should compile these questions so we can submit them to more knowledgeable people.
[2015-01-08 23:06:24] <cologic> Subsumed into the judgements of people accepting or not each individual project, presumably.
[2015-01-08 23:06:41] <cologic> Though, I, personally, would be wary.
[2015-01-08 23:07:05] <Pretorian> I propose that the board should file these questions to the EFF, they have a mailing list for questions.
[2015-01-08 23:07:25] <poy> This is of importance for several projects I am thinking of proposing for inclusion into the list of DCNF-supported projects.
[2015-01-08 23:07:51] <Pretorian> +1 board, -1 secretary
[2015-01-08 23:08:05] <poy> +1 board
[2015-01-08 23:08:25] <Pretorian> (or, perhaps I can't do that here, since we have a mutual exclusivity. oh, well, I believe my point comes across)
[2015-01-08 23:08:45] <cologic> Ah, I'm not sure precisely what's +1/-1'd here?
[2015-01-08 23:08:57] <Pretorian> [tor:23:07:05] <Pretorian> I propose that the board should file these questions to the EFF, they have a mailing list for questions.

[2015-01-08 23:09:00] <Pretorian> vs secretary
[2015-01-08 23:09:03] <cologic> +1 board
[2015-01-08 23:09:36] <poy> 3 votes for the board to compile a list of questions related to the legal separation between the DCNF and its supported projects and send it to the EFF.
[2015-01-08 23:09:46] <poy> I feel this point has been discussed enough.
[2015-01-08 23:09:50] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 6: Hosting DC hub lists
[2015-01-08 23:10:17] <poy> This point also has some legal concerns (re item 5).
[2015-01-08 23:10:42] <poy> I say the DCNF should host one global hub list, and possibly more later on.
[2015-01-08 23:10:45] <poy> Please discuss.
[2015-01-08 23:10:59] <cologic> +1 relatively strongly. I view this as an existential issue for DC.
[2015-01-08 23:11:15] <Pretorian> If DCNF is responsible for a hub list, it must abide by EFF's suggestions and be prepared to filter the list
[2015-01-08 23:11:39] <poy> Host it on dcbase.org or on a separate website? (the separate website could provide comments / rating, etc.)
[2015-01-08 23:12:22] <poy> Pretorian: Maybe not; that's also a question to be asked to the EFF.
[2015-01-08 23:12:27] <Pretorian> I believe DCNF shall NOT be the host, the hub list shall be a supporting project. In that way, it is hopefully sufficiently separated legally and organizationally.
[2015-01-08 23:12:43] <eMTee> +1
[2015-01-08 23:12:46] <cologic> Ah, I might revise my vote in light of that possiblity.
[2015-01-08 23:12:49] <poy> +1 for hub lists behing supported projects by the DCNF
[2015-01-08 23:12:53] <cologic> +1
[2015-01-08 23:12:59] <poy> 4 votes for hub lists behing supported projects by the DCNF.
[2015-01-08 23:13:06] <poy> I feel this has been discussed enough.
[2015-01-08 23:13:15] <eMTee> We might explore that one of the old hublist domains are free and use that.
[2015-01-08 23:13:16] <Pretorian> e will move on to item 7: Hosting DC support hubs for supported projects
[2015-01-08 23:13:49] <poy> This is the first service I propose the DCNF offers to projects it supports.
[2015-01-08 23:13:58] <Pretorian> eMTee: I think we can discuss that in an additional item later on.
[2015-01-08 23:14:01] <poy> Please discuss.
[2015-01-08 23:14:02] <eMTee> absultely necessary, it's a place when users can ask for problems fastly and without registration
[2015-01-08 23:14:13] <Pretorian> +1
[2015-01-08 23:14:26] <poy> +1
[2015-01-08 23:14:34] <cologic> +1
[2015-01-08 23:14:50] <Pretorian> I think this hub should be the very first hub that users visit (in most clients, hard coded in a "go to support hub" button)
[2015-01-08 23:14:54] <poy> 4 votes for the DCNF to provide support hubs to its supported projects.
[2015-01-08 23:15:35] <poy> If the hubs are hosted by the DCNF, legal concerns may also appear here. Chat-only (no file transfer) hubs?
[2015-01-08 23:16:03] <eMTee> even propose to add it as a default hub to open for clients that has possibility to open (hub) windows specified in the settings
[2015-01-08 23:16:10] <Pretorian> +1, with one note: there should be certain users that you _CAN_ download from that are bots. To show/handle connecitivty.
[2015-01-08 23:16:23] <Pretorian> +1 to chat-only btw
[2015-01-08 23:16:40] <eMTee> +1
[2015-01-08 23:16:46] <Pretorian> The bots should have like a single file or guide etc.
[2015-01-08 23:16:47] <poy> +1 for chat-only (except connectivity testing bots) support hubs.
[2015-01-08 23:17:02] <cologic> +1 to chat only except testing bots.
[2015-01-08 23:17:08] <poy> 4 votes for chat-only (except connectivity testing bots) support hubs.
[2015-01-08 23:17:21] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 8: Hosting code repositories for supported projects
[2015-01-08 23:17:30] <poy> Please discuss.
[2015-01-08 23:17:35] <Pretorian> (Assuming poy was done with 7.)
[2015-01-08 23:17:46] <poy> +1
[2015-01-08 23:17:47] <Pretorian> I agree, allow code repositories.
[2015-01-08 23:18:05] <eMTee> if they need it altough there are great free and reliable places on the internet to do so.
[2015-01-08 23:18:18] <Pretorian> We need to decide which type of repository git/svn and web?
[2015-01-08 23:18:36] <poy> Sure, could be optional.
[2015-01-08 23:19:02] <poy> I think the details of the repository type can be discussed later.
[2015-01-08 23:19:07] <cologic> My generic concern with <offer X infrastructure>, too, even though I've +1'd them, is that DC has been bad at infrastructure. I'm willing to try to have the DCNF try again, certainly.
[2015-01-08 23:19:22] <cologic> But, yes, ultimately code is what runs DC. +1
[2015-01-08 23:19:34] <Pretorian> I propose that the board decides the repository details.
[2015-01-08 23:19:41] <poy> That is a concern for me too but I see little point in having a foundation if it can't provide that.
[2015-01-08 23:19:50] <cologic> poy: I agree.
[2015-01-08 23:20:09] <poy> 4 votes for code repositories.
[2015-01-08 23:20:48] <poy> This has been discussed enough.
[2015-01-08 23:20:54] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 9: Hosting websites for supported projects
[2015-01-08 23:21:00] <poy> +1
[2015-01-08 23:21:13] <cologic> Same caveats+support as before.
[2015-01-08 23:21:15] <cologic> +1
[2015-01-08 23:21:23] <Pretorian> Depends on a) the type of website and b) how this shall be maintained?
[2015-01-08 23:21:42] <Pretorian> Shall we allow a SF-style http?
[2015-01-08 23:21:44] <poy> Hmm... Only static pages?
[2015-01-08 23:21:54] <Pretorian> Who can upload/maintain them?
[2015-01-08 23:22:13] <poy> This won't be easy to set up.
[2015-01-08 23:22:40] <Pretorian> Exactly, that is my concern.
[2015-01-08 23:22:50] <Pretorian> A repository is easy, a website is harder.
[2015-01-08 23:23:09] <Pretorian> I will +1 with restrictions on set up/maintenance.
[2015-01-08 23:24:02] <poy> I change my vote to a "no" ; to be decided later on.
[2015-01-08 23:24:37] <poy> 2 votes for websites (with restrictions) ; 1 vote against.
[2015-01-08 23:24:41] <poy> Let's move on.
[2015-01-08 23:24:44] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 10: Hosting mailing lists for supported projects
[2015-01-08 23:24:53] <poy> -1
[2015-01-08 23:24:56] <Pretorian> -1
[2015-01-08 23:24:57] <eMTee> -1
[2015-01-08 23:25:01] <cologic> -1
[2015-01-08 23:25:07] <poy> 4 votes against mailing lists.
[2015-01-08 23:25:13] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 11: Hosting bug trackers for supported projects
[2015-01-08 23:25:41] <poy> There are projects that provide the full package (redmine, bugzilla, iirc) - can be relatively easy to set up.
[2015-01-08 23:25:42] <poy> +1
[2015-01-08 23:26:04] <cologic> It's definitely a more constrained problem space than "websites"
[2015-01-08 23:26:11] <Pretorian> I am unsure, I will abstain.
[2015-01-08 23:26:17] <poy> And it makes sense to go along with code repositories.
[2015-01-08 23:26:37] <Pretorian> If there are two "yes" votes, I will vote "yes" as well.
[2015-01-08 23:27:07] <cologic> +1 as part of package. As poy said: the code should be linked with bug trackers.
[2015-01-08 23:27:13] <Pretorian> +1 then
[2015-01-08 23:27:17] <eMTee> no vote just like for the earlier two. I can't decide
[2015-01-08 23:27:29] <cologic> I'd be both/neither
[2015-01-08 23:27:35] <poy> 3 votes for bug trackers.
[2015-01-08 23:27:37] <Pretorian> Yes, both/neither

Pretorian
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Posts: 213
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Re: Organization meeting

Post by Pretorian » 20 Jan 2015, 19:46

Part 2
[2015-01-08 23:27:44] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 12: Buying the services of a network administrator
[2015-01-08 23:27:53] <poy> Discuss.
[2015-01-08 23:28:19] <poy> We will definitely need one to provide what we have voted for so far. I don't know the prices.
[2015-01-08 23:28:23] <eMTee> Unless we're lucky we won't find suitable people doing it for free.
[2015-01-08 23:28:29] <cologic> In principle, can't be worse than now. No idea of how this works financially, though.
[2015-01-08 23:28:41] <Pretorian> I believe the organization has other more highly prioritized items that it should spend money on, but if there is room, fincancially, yes.
[2015-01-08 23:28:55] <poy> Such as?
[2015-01-08 23:29:06] <eMTee> Yeah what are those?
[2015-01-08 23:29:10] <Pretorian> Domain, webserver for starters.
[2015-01-08 23:29:59] <poy> How much do they cost, roughly?
[2015-01-08 23:30:05] <cologic> To a large extent, I view the DCNF as a conduit for money for exactly this sort of thing, again, in principle. Paying for and coordinating interactions with external services is one of the major weak points today.
[2015-01-08 23:30:12] <Pretorian> Roughly 200 € per year.
[2015-01-08 23:30:16] <Pretorian> I think, IIRC.
[2015-01-08 23:30:44] <cologic> What's happened so far is that one person has decided to do it, but then one gets debacles such as the fun with Toast.
[2015-01-08 23:30:46] <Pretorian> Domain is "just" 7.9 €.
[2015-01-08 23:31:48] <Pretorian> Those two are the primary expenses that the organization has. After that is up for discussion.
[2015-01-08 23:31:59] <poy> Someone whose job is solely to do that (for many different clients) and has no interest in DC would be great. Any dev can then set up the code repository / bug tracker parts.
[2015-01-08 23:32:14] <eMTee> We can find/ask people who provided such working administered server for us for free before if he wants to do it for money?
[2015-01-08 23:32:23] <Pretorian> eMTee: +1
[2015-01-08 23:32:25] <cologic> Other problems that have come up: not keeping track of phpBB updates...
[2015-01-08 23:32:53] <Pretorian> I am decidingly _not_ a network/system administrator.
[2015-01-08 23:32:54] <cologic> (It wasn't a 0-day that took done one of the forum incarnations.)
[2015-01-08 23:32:56] <eMTee> cologic, that'd be same or worse for e.g. wordpress
[2015-01-08 23:33:03] <cologic> *down
[2015-01-08 23:33:26] <poy> +1 to eMTee.
[2015-01-08 23:33:38] <cologic> Yeah, I've read news items on that. Looks like it's had seriousl isues lately, including some that one had to respond to in literally hours or else one's installation was near-guaranteed exploited.
[2015-01-08 23:33:47] <cologic> +1 to eMTee
[2015-01-08 23:34:13] <poy> 4 votes for asking previous net admins to keep doing it for money.
[2015-01-08 23:34:35] <poy> (And of course, this comes after servers themselves have been paid.)
[2015-01-08 23:35:00] <poy> Next item?
[2015-01-08 23:35:02] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 14: Using external services to proxy DCNF / supported projects data
[2015-01-08 23:35:31] <poy> Basically, auto-sync with sourceforge / launchpad / github / etc.
[2015-01-08 23:35:50] <poy> I'm not sure what has to be discussed... We'll see when the rest is done.
[2015-01-08 23:36:05] <Pretorian> Yup, +1
[2015-01-08 23:36:46] <eMTee> no vote, still can't decide why we should host (and not link only) things that has great free reliable place elsewhere
[2015-01-08 23:37:07] <poy> eMTee: Because they could close at any time and we would be left with nothing.
[2015-01-08 23:37:17] <Pretorian> (see berlios)
[2015-01-08 23:37:34] <Pretorian> I sometimes wonder about the state of Launchpad to be honest
[2015-01-08 23:37:39] <cologic> Well, if proxy == mirror == backup, that's roughly what this proposes, yes?
[2015-01-08 23:37:50] <poy> However we could do the reverse: Rely on external services by default but keep auto-synchronizing with mirrors we host.
[2015-01-08 23:37:55] <eMTee> good point, though places I think of are in hands of large companies and it's unliklely they will be closed
[2015-01-08 23:38:06] <Pretorian> Yes, +1 poy autosync/backup
[2015-01-08 23:38:07] <eMTee> eg. github or launchpad, etc...
[2015-01-08 23:38:18] <cologic> Pretorian: it's tied to bzr and bzr is dead. A zombie, slowly shuffling along, but dead regardless.
[2015-01-08 23:38:47] <poy> eMTee: That's another issue; that companies (and governments they reside in) have their hands on these services.
[2015-01-08 23:39:16] <Pretorian> The current server for dcbase.org is not in the US which is pretty good.
[2015-01-08 23:39:16] <cologic> Combined with GitHub and Bitbucket as distant #2 taking over market, LP appears ever more to be something useful primarily for already-extant or internal Canonical projects.
[2015-01-08 23:39:36] <cologic> It's also useful for this purpose that the DCNF won't be American.
[2015-01-08 23:40:03] <cologic> +1 autosync/backup. -1 to internal repos as primary.
[2015-01-08 23:40:16] <Pretorian> +1 cologic
[2015-01-08 23:40:21] <eMTee> +1 cologic
[2015-01-08 23:40:22] <cologic> Removes DDoS incentives too.
[2015-01-08 23:41:02] <poy> +1 to external services as primary project management services, with auto-sync with DCNF servers.
[2015-01-08 23:41:22] <poy> 4 votes for external services as primary project management services, with auto-sync with DCNF servers.
[2015-01-08 23:41:30] <poy> (hmm, my ctrl+up got messed up...)
[2015-01-08 23:41:34] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 14 (previous item was mislabled, should've been 13): Legal structure to help the DCNF
[2015-01-08 23:42:01] <poy> Discuss.
[2015-01-08 23:42:16] <Pretorian> What type of legal structure did you have in mind?
[2015-01-08 23:42:24] <poy> We talked earlier about just emailing the EFF so that could be enough.
[2015-01-08 23:42:31] <Pretorian> Yes, agreed.
[2015-01-08 23:42:40] <poy> I don't know; what type of legal structure do IT foundations usually have?
[2015-01-08 23:42:44] <cologic> DCNF is the structure, I'd thought. But yes, I'd say this follows reading if/how the EFF responds.
[2015-01-08 23:43:00] <cologic> It's not as if there will be a legal department.
[2015-01-08 23:43:03] <Pretorian> Yes, indeed, cologic.
[2015-01-08 23:43:11] <poy> Ok, let's move on.
[2015-01-08 23:43:12] <Pretorian> DCNF will be a legal entity.
[2015-01-08 23:43:20] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 15: Legal structure to help supported projects
[2015-01-08 23:43:33] <Pretorian> Same thing there, EFF?
[2015-01-08 23:43:39] <poy> What legal services is the DCNF going to provide to supported projects?
[2015-01-08 23:43:41] <Pretorian> (oops, sorry, your word poy)
[2015-01-08 23:44:22] <cologic> Yeah, I think legal issues, albeit important in principle, are probably beyond the DCNF's effective capacity as currently constituted.
[2015-01-08 23:44:41] <poy> Moving on then.
[2015-01-08 23:45:02] <Pretorian> I believe DCNF should have a list of all questions/answers it has taken to a legal council/EFF.,
[2015-01-08 23:45:14] <poy> +1
[2015-01-08 23:45:15] <Pretorian> On the aforementioned wiki/website.
[2015-01-08 23:45:59] <cologic> +1
[2015-01-08 23:46:17] <poy> 3 votes for the DCNF hosting legal questions / answers.
[2015-01-08 23:46:24] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 16: Ways to find new members
[2015-01-08 23:46:42] <poy> Open discussion.
[2015-01-08 23:47:23] <Pretorian> I thought I'd post to reddit/r/technology, flashback.org (Sweden's largest forum) announcing the org.
[2015-01-08 23:47:35] <poy> There are 2 sides to this: advertizing / letting potential members even know the DCNF exists; and motivating them (giving something back).
[2015-01-08 23:48:02] <cologic> I doubt I'll disagree with anything vaguely reasonable here on the advertising side, anyway.
[2015-01-08 23:48:09] <Pretorian> I considered also posting/talking to IDG.se (IT webpaper), Swedish Pirate Party and potentially torrentfreak.com (they sometimes do posts about other stuff).
[2015-01-08 23:48:33] <Pretorian> Oh, yeah, above is just advertisement.
[2015-01-08 23:49:06] <poy> What about announcing the foundation on some DC forums? Or would that be too much of a nudge?
[2015-01-08 23:49:10] <Pretorian> Giving back: perhaps a t-shirt with DCNF logo?
[2015-01-08 23:49:15] <Pretorian> Yes, that would work fine.
[2015-01-08 23:49:32] <poy> A DCNF badge one can include in a program.
[2015-01-08 23:49:43] <poy> +1 for the t-shirt.
[2015-01-08 23:49:50] <Pretorian> But I believe we shall do all of that after members can actually sign up in a meaningful way and pay money.
[2015-01-08 23:49:59] <Pretorian> (to be discussed I suppose)
[2015-01-08 23:50:04] <Pretorian> +1 badge
[2015-01-08 23:50:17] <poy> This is also the topic... How do they join & pay?
[2015-01-08 23:50:48] <Pretorian> My idea is outlined as:
Paying

There will a Swedish bank account set up to allow people to send money to it for membership. This account will also be used for other economic matters that pertains to the organization. A PayPal account will be set up to be attached to the bank account.

Members

Members should send [email protected] a mail indicating their name (pseudonym is possible), e-mail and possible also something unique (preferably). The unique thing is meant to be a way for us to identify people if they want to vote etc.

Membership information will be stored in a database, kept in a place where the board has access to it. The board will manage adding/removal/change of membership information.
[2015-01-08 23:51:01] <Pretorian> s/economic/financial
[2015-01-08 23:51:12] <cologic> I don't disagree with any of this. +1 for why not, if people are interested.
[2015-01-08 23:51:32] <Pretorian> Initially just keep a simple Excel file that the board can access/modify.
[2015-01-08 23:51:41] <poy> 3 votes ub favor of the various ideas in this item.
[2015-01-08 23:51:45] <poy> in favor*
[2015-01-08 23:51:45] <cologic> This gamification stuff isn't my personal preference, but it's quite popular in the world.
[2015-01-08 23:51:59] <Pretorian> But further down the line a full fledged a simple "I join" site.
[2015-01-08 23:52:30] <poy> Next?
[2015-01-08 23:52:31] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 17: Hub for the DCNF
[2015-01-08 23:52:57] <eMTee> Could be the same as we called dev hub until now?
[2015-01-08 23:53:01] <poy> The dcbase server should host a hub for the DCNF.
[2015-01-08 23:53:08] <Pretorian> I believe this is adcs://hub.dcbase.org:16591 and it should be hosted on a DCNF controlled server.
[2015-01-08 23:53:24] <Pretorian> Not as a service, but as a part of the DCNF infrastructure.
[2015-01-08 23:53:54] <poy> It will inevitably receive attacks; are we ready to handle them?
[2015-01-08 23:54:02] <cologic> I'd be fine with that, though reliability is evidently a problem.
[2015-01-08 23:54:06] <poy> Or do we wait for that network admin?
[2015-01-08 23:54:14] <Pretorian> I think OVH, our current server, can handle it.
[2015-01-08 23:54:37] <cologic> poy: that's my question about a lot of these infrastructure issues. I'm concerned about the DCNF making promises it has no effective capacity to keep.
[2015-01-08 23:54:53] <poy> +1 for hosting the dcbase hub on the OVH server immediately.
[2015-01-08 23:54:58] <cologic> I'd rather it try and fail than not try, but I'm cognizant of the problem.
[2015-01-08 23:55:05] <Pretorian> Indeed, cologic
[2015-01-08 23:55:14] <cologic> +1
[2015-01-08 23:55:16] <poy> (could only moderately hurt to try - OVH will put the server down and relaunch it after some time.)
[2015-01-08 23:55:38] <poy> 3 votes for hosting the dcbase hub on the OVH server immediately.
[2015-01-08 23:55:44] <Pretorian> The word moves from poy to eMTee. We will move on to item 18: Involvement of the DCNF in DC protocols
[2015-01-08 23:55:45] <cologic> On the web side, cloudflare has been very effective.
[2015-01-08 23:56:19] <poy> eMTee, you now have the hand on items being discussed.
[2015-01-08 23:56:28] <eMTee> but divulging the ip with the hub would make cloudflare ineffective, no?
[2015-01-08 23:56:47] <cologic> Yes, it would. Cloudflare can't do DC hubs, so the hosts need distinct IPs
[2015-01-08 23:57:08] <Pretorian> eMTee, you have the word.
[2015-01-08 23:58:06] <poy> If I may start... I belive the DCNF should not directly interfere with DC protocols but that they should simply be supported projects.
[2015-01-08 23:58:09] <Pretorian> I will open up for discussion.
[2015-01-08 23:58:22] <Pretorian> Agree, +1
[2015-01-08 23:58:33] <cologic> +1
[2015-01-08 23:58:39] <poy> So eMTee had good ideas but they are to be brought up with ADC managers.
[2015-01-08 23:58:57] <eMTee> no vote then
[2015-01-08 23:59:05] <poy> 3 votes for "the DCNF should not directly interfere with DC protocols but that they should simply be supported projects".
[2015-01-08 23:59:08] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 19: Buying the services of developers
[2015-01-08 23:59:12] <eMTee> who are ADC managers, anyway?
[2015-01-08 23:59:16] <Pretorian> I am.
[2015-01-08 23:59:39] <eMTee> and why not present it under the name of the organization?
[2015-01-08 23:59:50] <cologic> Developers are one of the only things around here in any numbers, vs IT admin, etc.
[2015-01-09 00:00:10] <Pretorian> eMTee was not done with item 18, continuing discussion.
[2015-01-09 00:00:24] <Pretorian> eMTee: I would say that the ADC project can be a supported project.
[2015-01-09 00:00:32] <poy> That's a good question - I have no opinion.
[2015-01-09 00:00:48] <Pretorian> I am unsure what DCNF, as an organization, shall provide.
[2015-01-09 00:00:55] <eMTee> I think it would look great and a lot more convincing that the org is behind the recommended DC protocol
[2015-01-09 00:00:55] <poy> A protocol published by a well-organized foundation might have more impact.
[2015-01-09 00:01:11] <eMTee> But I may alone with that assumption.
[2015-01-09 00:01:42] <cologic> I'm indifferent, largely. I do agree it probably looks more convincing.
[2015-01-09 00:01:43] <Pretorian> You make a good case.
[2015-01-09 00:01:44] <eMTee> poy, that's what I had in mind, yeah
[2015-01-09 00:01:55] <Pretorian> Fair enough, +1 DCNF for protocols
[2015-01-09 00:02:14] <poy> This is an important decision - does the DCNF take control of the ADC protocol?
[2015-01-09 00:02:14] <Pretorian> This would include changing naming etc, right?
[2015-01-09 00:02:24] <poy> Also, should we ask arnetheduck about this?
[2015-01-09 00:02:25] <Pretorian> I have no problem with that.
[2015-01-09 00:02:33] <Pretorian> ADC, yes, technically.
[2015-01-09 00:02:48] <Pretorian> Not the NMDC project, I own that and I can transfer to DCNF.
[2015-01-09 00:02:48] <cologic> poy: arne is/would be quite the bottleneck in that case. No objections in principle, only practical concerns.
[2015-01-09 00:03:14] <Pretorian> I propose the board should talk to arne about officially moving control to DCNF.
[2015-01-09 00:03:21] <eMTee> +1
[2015-01-09 00:03:26] <cologic> +1
[2015-01-09 00:03:31] <poy> +1
[2015-01-09 00:03:38] <Pretorian> Furthermore, +1 to DCNF controlling ADC/NMDC
[2015-01-09 00:03:41] <poy> 4 votes for "the board should talk to arne about officially moving control to DCNF".
[2015-01-09 00:03:59] <Pretorian> eMTee: Are you OK with this item?
[2015-01-09 00:04:37] <eMTee> One remark: I thought about ADC only not NMDC. But there's time to discuss it at length later.
[2015-01-09 00:04:51] <Pretorian> NMDC is similarly applicable.
[2015-01-09 00:04:57] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 19: Buying the services of developers
[2015-01-09 00:05:37] <eMTee> "Buying" - expression is not from me.
[2015-01-09 00:05:48] <Pretorian> Please clarify/explain.
[2015-01-09 00:06:08] <Pretorian> (In your own words)
[2015-01-09 00:06:24] <eMTee> recruit is the word I used but maybe it's bad
[2015-01-09 00:06:33] <eMTee> convince maybe?
[2015-01-09 00:06:47] <Pretorian> I think that would be good/OK, I suppose.
[2015-01-09 00:06:50] <cologic> Depends how one wants to fine-tune the connotations.
[2015-01-09 00:07:08] <cologic> Dozens if not hundreds of words broadly might apply.
[2015-01-09 00:07:08] <Pretorian> Depends on the incentive, I guess.
[2015-01-09 00:07:17] <poy> Do you have ideas to convince devs?
[2015-01-09 00:07:30] <poy> I have one: Google summer of code
[2015-01-09 00:07:36] <eMTee> great
[2015-01-09 00:07:39] <Pretorian> +1
[2015-01-09 00:07:41] <cologic> +1
[2015-01-09 00:08:06] <poy> 4 votes for the DCNF using the "Google summer of code" event to lure developers into DC.
[2015-01-09 00:08:10] <eMTee> also announcements on project sites for open developer positions to certain areas/goas to achieve
[2015-01-09 00:08:18] <Pretorian> +1, eMTee
[2015-01-09 00:08:21] <eMTee> also in the DCNF blog
[2015-01-09 00:08:29] <cologic> Perhaps a more controversial one, but making DC++ less conservative, since it and its mods are the main GUI clients these days.
[2015-01-09 00:09:07] <cologic> I regard this notion of ignoring the widespread need/desire for functionality because mods can do it as a long-failed experiment.
[2015-01-09 00:09:16] <eMTee> also to respond at least for devs who would do great things if they'd be allowed or encouraged
[2015-01-09 00:09:44] <Pretorian> If there are no other comments/suggestions, we will move on to item 19: Buying the services of developers
[2015-01-09 00:09:47] <poy> cologic: I'm not quite getting "less conservative" - technically or in terms of letting more people contribute?
[2015-01-09 00:09:57] <eMTee> there's at least one case that really bothers me. I don't want to mention persons, to be discussed later if anyone interested.
[2015-01-09 00:10:01] <cologic> Both, I guess, but I had in mind the former.
[2015-01-09 00:10:24] <Pretorian> Let's move on
[2015-01-09 00:10:32] <poy> Wait
[2015-01-09 00:10:36] <Pretorian> ok
[2015-01-09 00:10:58] <poy> Do you know "project sites for open developer positions"?
[2015-01-09 00:11:26] <poy> The ones I can think of usually involve money.
[2015-01-09 00:11:29] <Pretorian> I thought that'd be for each respective project's main page?
[2015-01-09 00:11:38] <Pretorian> E.g., "DC++ is in need of a web master"
[2015-01-09 00:11:44] <Pretorian> Similarly to how ApexDC++ does it, I think
[2015-01-09 00:11:54] <poy> Ah... Good idea. :)
[2015-01-09 00:12:16] <Pretorian> So we don't have to spend money.
[2015-01-09 00:12:46] <poy> Next item?
[2015-01-09 00:12:49] <Pretorian> Next item. We will move on to item 20: Mobile/web-based DC-related programs
[2015-01-09 00:13:12] <Pretorian> eMTee?
[2015-01-09 00:13:20] <eMTee> Pretorian's idea, I added to the list because I think it's important today.
[2015-01-09 00:13:44] <eMTee> It was even discussed at some detail how would things done in a mobile client.
[2015-01-09 00:13:53] <Pretorian> Fair enough, I believe we should have two things: 1) A webbased client that can be used as a proxy for chat-only hubs and 2) native clients for phones
[2015-01-09 00:14:05] <eMTee> Needs a dedicated project/developer though.
[2015-01-09 00:14:28] <cologic> I don't disagree that this would be useful.
[2015-01-09 00:14:34] <poy> Related to the previous point then.
[2015-01-09 00:14:38] <Pretorian> 1) would allow users to connect to the DCNF hub without owning a device that can connect via normal DC protocols
[2015-01-09 00:15:10] <Pretorian> E.g., if you have a locked down computer where you can't install/run EXEs
[2015-01-09 00:15:22] <Pretorian> (but where HTTP works)
[2015-01-09 00:15:40] <Pretorian> But ultimately this requires developers, of course.
[2015-01-09 00:15:55] <poy> I'm all for it - sounds like a good project to bring new devs.
[2015-01-09 00:15:59] <cologic> My personal solution is ncdc + any SSH-like frontend one wants. That's not a mass-market solution, of course.
[2015-01-09 00:16:19] <Pretorian> If possible, it would be great if people could convince universities to create a project (say, final thesis)
[2015-01-09 00:16:24] <cologic> There are 'SSH for the web' native JS terminals.
[2015-01-09 00:17:12] <Pretorian> The only problem with such a university project is the available physical place to carry out that project. Those projects are typically done at the company/org.
[2015-01-09 00:17:17] <Pretorian> (not possible for me)
[2015-01-09 00:17:17] <eMTee> Pretorian, very good idea, relates to the points discussed above
[2015-01-09 00:18:18] <Pretorian> The persons doing the project is usually compensated somehow, at least in my experience.
[2015-01-09 00:18:36] <Pretorian> But it'd be a fun project, most likely for a university.
[2015-01-09 00:18:47] <Pretorian> And for students
[2015-01-09 00:19:22] <Pretorian> Ok, next?
[2015-01-09 00:19:28] <Pretorian> We will move on to item 21: Contacting well-known tech bloggers
[2015-01-09 00:19:54] <Pretorian> Tied in with 16, finding new members. Any suggestions for bloggers?
[2015-01-09 00:20:05] <eMTee> Pretty much what it says. Tech bloggers are always looking for/eager to write about interesting things but before contacting them we do should looking interesting. Therefore it's not useful before we have a good website and nominated clients/hubs that's for wide usage.
[2015-01-09 00:20:09] <Pretorian> (whoops, sorry, eMTee's word)
[2015-01-09 00:20:19] <Pretorian> ok, +1
[2015-01-09 00:21:35] <poy> Yep, the blogger will just fire up a client and if it's not perfect he'll let it go.
[2015-01-09 00:21:44] <eMTee> We need that new people like what they discovered through the recommendation of their fav blog sites. If it's average or hard to use they just move on...
[2015-01-09 00:22:02] <Pretorian> Any particular suggestions for bloggers?
[2015-01-09 00:22:53] <eMTee> Harder security with similar possibilities that other known P2P can offer.
[2015-01-09 00:23:18] <eMTee> +instant messaging, community features. what other P2P doesn't offer
[2015-01-09 00:23:29] <Pretorian> +1
[2015-01-09 00:23:32] <cologic> Generalizing, easier to form known groups (e.g., where local bandwidth is free/cheap/abundant but the links outside aren't).
[2015-01-09 00:24:22] <Pretorian> Ok, let's move on. We will move on to item 22: DC and businesses
[2015-01-09 00:25:00] <eMTee> I can only quote my idea from my list
[2015-01-09 00:25:08] <eMTee> Provide a documentation of ideas of possible business/industrial usage of the DC protocol (securely sharing, transferreing documents between parties or parts of a large company without storing outside, etc...) If DC could be picked up and developed by a business for any purpose but on its own cost, that could give a boost in form of a possible upstream patches to various DC software.
[2015-01-09 00:25:38] <poy> +1 for planning on publishing such a doc.
[2015-01-09 00:25:42] <Pretorian> So this is primarily documentation, targetted to businesses?
[2015-01-09 00:26:07] <Pretorian> +1 anyway
[2015-01-09 00:26:25] <eMTee> Rather a heads up of what more can be achieved using the DC protocol.
[2015-01-09 00:26:26] <poy> 3 votes for planning a business-oriented doc about DC.
[2015-01-09 00:26:57] <eMTee> Could include other similar ideas that makes potential people thinking about it.
[2015-01-09 00:27:00] <poy> also chatting... we use DC at work to chat sometimes. ;)
[2015-01-09 00:27:10] <eMTee> sure
[2015-01-09 00:27:13] <Pretorian> +1
[2015-01-09 00:27:16] <cologic> +1
[2015-01-09 00:27:31] <eMTee> and the hub runs at the boss' office logging all :P
[2015-01-09 00:27:52] <Pretorian> With this subitem, this concludes the item 15, with the list created in item 5.
[2015-01-09 00:27:59] <cologic> It's surprisingly hard to find good, reasonably mature open-source chat servers and clients. XMPP/SIP are the main competitors here.
[2015-01-09 00:28:00] <poy> it's in a machine in the middle of the office. :)
[2015-01-09 00:28:11] <Pretorian> Item 16 in the by-laws: additional items and motions.
[2015-01-09 00:28:35] <Pretorian> I have two: a) copyright management for DC plugins and b) copyright management for clients/hubs
[2015-01-09 00:29:02] <Pretorian> Item a) I believe all DC Plugins shall transfer the copyright to DCNF, similarly as ADC/NMDC projects
[2015-01-09 00:29:09] <Pretorian> (where possible/applicable)
[2015-01-09 00:29:12] <Pretorian> feel free to discuss
[2015-01-09 00:29:22] <eMTee> what is the advantage?
[2015-01-09 00:29:24] <poy> Sounds harsh... why?
[2015-01-09 00:29:28] <cologic> What are they now?
[2015-01-09 00:29:48] <Pretorian> Allows plugins to have a signature stamp that they were created by the organization.
[2015-01-09 00:30:03] <Pretorian> Or, sanctioned, at least.
[2015-01-09 00:30:27] <poy> I see - we were planning on DC++ managers to do that in the past - better have the foundation do it.
[2015-01-09 00:30:35] <Pretorian> Yes.
[2015-01-09 00:30:45] <Pretorian> Note: this item is only for plugins, I will get to clients/hubs
[2015-01-09 00:30:48] <poy> So you mean "existing plugins", not "any plugin anyone develops"?
[2015-01-09 00:30:52] <Pretorian> correct
[2015-01-09 00:31:17] <poy> +1 for moving current DC plugins to the DCNF.
[2015-01-09 00:31:20] <Pretorian> Basically the ones listed on <http://dcplusplus.sourceforge.net/plugins.html>
[2015-01-09 00:31:26] <Pretorian> Including the SDK project.
[2015-01-09 00:32:02] <cologic> +1 certainly for the "DC++ team" ones. iceman would have to comment on is. I guess poy's basically already commented regarding iFeelPowerful.
[2015-01-09 00:32:10] <Pretorian> Yes, of course, cologic.
[2015-01-09 00:32:25] <eMTee> Since plugins is a standard like the protocols, if the latter goes under the control of DCNF then it's logical to do the same with plugins
[2015-01-09 00:32:27] <Pretorian> We cannot "steal" the copyright of those authors.
[2015-01-09 00:32:35] <Pretorian> Indeed, eMTee.
[2015-01-09 00:32:36] <poy> 4 votes for moving current DC plugins to the DCNF.
[2015-01-09 00:33:04] <Pretorian> Item b) this is the same as item a) but for certain clients and hubs. Notably, DC++, in my opinion.
[2015-01-09 00:33:10] <poy> 4 votes for asking current plugin authors to transfer to the DCNF.*
[2015-01-09 00:33:29] <Pretorian> This would allow us to create certificates for DC++ (et al) and have a better publishing mechanism.
[2015-01-09 00:33:33] <Pretorian> Feel free to discuss
[2015-01-09 00:33:48] <poy> I'm indifferent on DC++ & ADCH++ themselves going to the DCNF - in any case, arnetheduck has the final word on that matter.
[2015-01-09 00:33:58] <Pretorian> Provided of course that we will get arne's approval.
[2015-01-09 00:34:20] <Pretorian> It would simplify legal action, if such need to be taken.
[2015-01-09 00:34:21] <eMTee> But also it will still make DC++ look like the de facto and best client. It's not the purpose of DCNF
[2015-01-09 00:34:31] <Pretorian> Good point eMTee.
[2015-01-09 00:34:43] <eMTee> not to say that it's not DC++ that is the best client available right now
[2015-01-09 00:34:56] <Pretorian> The idea behind the move is simply that I would like to have a certificate issued.
[2015-01-09 00:35:09] <Pretorian> That would allow users to see a "approved" installer.
[2015-01-09 00:35:10] <poy> If the advantage is "certs", how would other supported projects handle certs? Maybe the DCNF could help them without requiring a copyright?
[2015-01-09 00:35:13] <cologic> I had been prepared to support, but yes, actually, I agree that at least at first the DCNF should maintain separation from any given client, since it already looks like it's basically just DC++ developers.
[2015-01-09 00:35:34] <cologic> Which is a critique I've seen in particular before on some other things regarding ADC.
[2015-01-09 00:35:40] <Pretorian> I believe the copyright owner MUST be the same as the certificate owner.
[2015-01-09 00:36:13] <Pretorian> E.g., it is "worse" to see "Jacek Sieka supplied this application".
[2015-01-09 00:36:20] <Pretorian> vs "DCNF supplied this application"
[2015-01-09 00:36:30] <Pretorian> But yes, I agree it is cumbersome for other develoeprs.
[2015-01-09 00:36:33] <cologic> I agree there, but regard is a lesser downside.
[2015-01-09 00:37:19] <Pretorian> ok, new proposal: DCNF should provide projects with an ability to acquire certificates (i.e., basically paying for the certificate)
[2015-01-09 00:37:20] <eMTee> A remark: we're talking about moving copyright to DCNF, I think it's not a good idea, however to move the copyright of DC++ and ADCH++ to someone who actively working on it would be great.
[2015-01-09 00:37:23] <poy> eMTee & cologic make good points - this loss of separation is dangerous. I'd prefer DC++ found another way of getting certs.
[2015-01-09 00:38:24] <Pretorian> +1 agree on separation
[2015-01-09 00:38:29] <poy> +1 for the DCNF providing supported projects with a way of getting certs.
[2015-01-09 00:38:30] <cologic> eMTee: yes. Absolutely. I've discussed this before. Whether DCNF should 'own' DC++ (which has problems, yes), arne's increasingly a historical figure regarding DC++.
[2015-01-09 00:39:19] <eMTee> for the record: we even forget to invite him for this meeting. sorry arne if you ever read it.
[2015-01-09 00:39:26] <poy> His copyright makes sense nonetheless as he remains the main contributor, and he is probably still available by email.
[2015-01-09 00:39:51] <cologic> It's been a while since it's caused real problems, so the status quo, conversely, doesn't much bother me.
[2015-01-09 00:39:54] <Pretorian> We have a list of items that he needs to address, we should bring this up as well.
[2015-01-09 00:40:07] <Pretorian> (well, the board*)
[2015-01-09 00:41:04] <Pretorian> If there are no additional comments on this, I will move on.
[2015-01-09 00:41:14] <Pretorian> Next item that I just though of, that we discussed earlier:
[2015-01-09 00:41:20] <Pretorian> [tor:23:13:15] <eMTee> We might explore that one of the old hublist domains are free and use that.
[2015-01-09 00:41:36] <Pretorian> Perhaps we should buy old domains.
[2015-01-09 00:41:57] <Pretorian> I don't know all of them, and I don't know which are still active to this day.
[2015-01-09 00:42:01] <eMTee> hublist.org and openhublist.org that I was referring
[2015-01-09 00:42:03] <cologic> Cheap + pre-existing client trust relationships. Could be useful.
[2015-01-09 00:42:17] <Pretorian> +1 for those two
[2015-01-09 00:42:22] <poy> Good idea, +1.
[2015-01-09 00:42:44] <eMTee> openhublist may had another different domain at it's start IIRC.
[2015-01-09 00:42:45] <poy> 4 votes for attempting to buy "dead" hub list domain names.
[2015-01-09 00:42:52] <Pretorian> If there are no further comments on this item, I will move on.
[2015-01-09 00:43:03] <Pretorian> This concludes item 16, addiitonal items.
[2015-01-09 00:43:14] <Pretorian> This is the last item and concludes this meeting.
[2015-01-09 00:43:29] <Pretorian> I want to thank all of you for participating.
[2015-01-09 00:43:37] <Pretorian> Any last comments?
[2015-01-09 00:43:54] <cologic> Not from me.
[2015-01-09 00:44:17] <Pretorian> I will hereby officially close this very first meeting for the Direct Connection Network Foundation (DCNF).

klondike
Member
Posts: 73
Joined: 14 Nov 2010, 13:06

Re: Organization meeting 20150108

Post by klondike » 07 Feb 2015, 21:58

Shame on me not to have gone to the meeting.

Reading the notes I should raise this for both the board and community consideration:

At Euskal Encounter we had a free software competition for developing an Android client able to do chatting on ADC... I know well because I was appointed responsible to answer technical questions about the protocol from participating teams xD Anyways some good clients were made and I think those were free software. For reference one of the projects: https://github.com/pabgn/DC-Messenger (I have asked if the code of the others is available somewhere).

Also as a side note about getting support from bussinesses I should state DC has kept a good health at Spanish lan parties for obvious reasons (centralized access restrictions mostly and easy community building).

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